w/ John McWhorter and Glenn Loury ( @ HxA Conf 2022) No Moynihan, No Welch Progress or Pesmissim Campus Culture Culture Warriors Gaslighting + Reactionaries DEI Obstacles Overstatement and Bravery Dignity + Individualism Race as Ethnicity All in Bounds
Kmele, thank you for another amazing discussion. I have two girls, 11 and 14, and they hear a variety of my podcasts as we drive, cook, etc. I make sure they listen closely when you speak passionately and intelligently on any subject, as an example of not only solidly argued positions, but also how and why we should discuss such things.
Your point of “expanding the circle” of humanity to explain the human story rather than isolated tribes hit home. When I was very young and in an abusive home, I escaped with books. I happened upon Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl and Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass (it was a combined publication). I imaginatively placed myself in the position of the people as well as of the times. I contemplated what it would have been like to be both a slave as well as a slaveholder. This type of exercise is unimaginably beneficial as a launching point for understanding and important discussions. Thanks again.
John was right when he said, "Kmele, you are golden." I'll agree with that statement, for many reasons, but this morning for this episode. What a treat to wake up way too early on a Sunday morning to find this episode in my email! Three men I respect and have learned much from over the past few years. I hope you make good, Kmele, on your statement to have Glenn and John back to have more of this conversation. (I'd also love to have a transcript of this episode.)
I’ve always thought one of the core early functions of religion was as a pro-social device to encourage commerce and cooperation between otherwise antagonistic clans. “Sure, the settlement down in the valley might be backwards and ill-behaved and odd…but they worship the same gods we do, so let’s try to get along and farm together.” What irritates me about race essentialism isn’t just that it’s cartoonishly simplistic thinking and reductive, but that it actively works against the same pro-social impulses that other belief systems bring. Why try to cooperate with other groups if they’re just, by virtue of their lineage (not their individual traits, which they can control, but their parentage, which they cannot), flawed or lacking in a way that makes it impossible for us to ever find common ground?
I loved hearing Kmele’s unflinchingly ecumenical, universally relevant message about finding ways to widen, not reduce, our understanding of what unites us as humans, and hope we can find some non-faith based strategy to make those ideas accessible to a broad audience.
Some awesome nuggets in this discussion. You guys should have Kevin D. Williamson on to discuss his ideas on individualism, best represented in his book The Smallest Minority.
Kmele - wonderful to hear the nuance and texture in these topics with yourself, Glenn, and John. The ultimate progress lies in individuality as our North Star, I agree.
We are trapped to a large degree by low-resolution racial abstractions sustained by historical inertia that ultimately are not helping us realize the fruits of our pluralism here in the USA. The DEI trainings, the Biden "equity" and "justice" doctrines, etc. are enshrining and foregrounding these imprecise racial avatars. Your remark about taking your daughter to school and seeing the "black child" book hit home here.
I wish there were a way to force everyone who uses racial terms to read the Fields' sisters book and listen to this conversation, but it's all I can do to represent the ideals I believe in, and think harder about how to show people the way out of the honey-dripped pleasant illusions that are so popular now. Thanks for living your values publicly, and shining some light on the path.
I really appreciated Glen's comments near the end about the importance of group identity, and especially about the importance of historical continuity in constructing and maintaining group identity.
I'd really like to see that topic explored more fully.
Wonderful conversation. There is not a single DEI consultant in the world that could go toe-to-toe with either John McWhorter or Glenn Loury. And that would seem to be kind of the point, from my experience...
This was such a valuable conversation. It’s clear to me that we should want to structure our society such that people can be seen for their individuality while also feeling a sense of community and commonality. The old ways of doing this - race, religion, etc - are just not sufficient. The path to finding new, better ways of living together is through conversations like this. Kmele, please have more conversations with John and Glenn, you guys are truly on to something here.
So good, Kmele. I think 2018 or 2019 I was listening to Mike Pesca, and he mentioned Coleman Hughes. It was a huge turning point for me. Eventually I began listening to Glenn and John’s conversations, and finally felt comfortable pushing back on some of the ideas coming from the people I had been ideologically aligned with for so many years. I started getting into debates both online and IRL, and at one point a large amount of people were barraging me with accusations of bigotry, etc., and Erec Smith came jumped in to back me up. He recommended Racecraft to me, which I think totally blew the door off the hinges. Life changing. While I had heard of you, I don’t think it was until Michael went on Andrew Sullivan’s podcast that I finally checked out TFC. So glad I did. Love hearing from you every week, and will be an avid supporter in all your future ambitions. Keep it up, and I definitely recommend getting Eric Smith on sometime. He did an awesome job on the Blocked and Reported episode recorded at Heterodox!
Apologies for going off topic but after paying to watch Andrew Schulz's Infamous (brilliantly funny and vulgar), I've been revisiting episodes 30 and 32 (literally pre and post 2016 election) and am now entering a plea for a Fifth reunion!
I’m glad Matt and Michael finally decided to shut up, listen, and de-center their whiteness to uplift BIPOC voices! (:p)
Kmele, thank you for another amazing discussion. I have two girls, 11 and 14, and they hear a variety of my podcasts as we drive, cook, etc. I make sure they listen closely when you speak passionately and intelligently on any subject, as an example of not only solidly argued positions, but also how and why we should discuss such things.
Your point of “expanding the circle” of humanity to explain the human story rather than isolated tribes hit home. When I was very young and in an abusive home, I escaped with books. I happened upon Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl and Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass (it was a combined publication). I imaginatively placed myself in the position of the people as well as of the times. I contemplated what it would have been like to be both a slave as well as a slaveholder. This type of exercise is unimaginably beneficial as a launching point for understanding and important discussions. Thanks again.
Cheers,
MJ
Kmele is recording while sick because of his internalized sense of white supremacy urgency
John was right when he said, "Kmele, you are golden." I'll agree with that statement, for many reasons, but this morning for this episode. What a treat to wake up way too early on a Sunday morning to find this episode in my email! Three men I respect and have learned much from over the past few years. I hope you make good, Kmele, on your statement to have Glenn and John back to have more of this conversation. (I'd also love to have a transcript of this episode.)
I’ve always thought one of the core early functions of religion was as a pro-social device to encourage commerce and cooperation between otherwise antagonistic clans. “Sure, the settlement down in the valley might be backwards and ill-behaved and odd…but they worship the same gods we do, so let’s try to get along and farm together.” What irritates me about race essentialism isn’t just that it’s cartoonishly simplistic thinking and reductive, but that it actively works against the same pro-social impulses that other belief systems bring. Why try to cooperate with other groups if they’re just, by virtue of their lineage (not their individual traits, which they can control, but their parentage, which they cannot), flawed or lacking in a way that makes it impossible for us to ever find common ground?
I loved hearing Kmele’s unflinchingly ecumenical, universally relevant message about finding ways to widen, not reduce, our understanding of what unites us as humans, and hope we can find some non-faith based strategy to make those ideas accessible to a broad audience.
Some awesome nuggets in this discussion. You guys should have Kevin D. Williamson on to discuss his ideas on individualism, best represented in his book The Smallest Minority.
Damn that was good
It’s here!
Kmele - wonderful to hear the nuance and texture in these topics with yourself, Glenn, and John. The ultimate progress lies in individuality as our North Star, I agree.
We are trapped to a large degree by low-resolution racial abstractions sustained by historical inertia that ultimately are not helping us realize the fruits of our pluralism here in the USA. The DEI trainings, the Biden "equity" and "justice" doctrines, etc. are enshrining and foregrounding these imprecise racial avatars. Your remark about taking your daughter to school and seeing the "black child" book hit home here.
I wish there were a way to force everyone who uses racial terms to read the Fields' sisters book and listen to this conversation, but it's all I can do to represent the ideals I believe in, and think harder about how to show people the way out of the honey-dripped pleasant illusions that are so popular now. Thanks for living your values publicly, and shining some light on the path.
I really appreciated Glen's comments near the end about the importance of group identity, and especially about the importance of historical continuity in constructing and maintaining group identity.
I'd really like to see that topic explored more fully.
Wonderful conversation. There is not a single DEI consultant in the world that could go toe-to-toe with either John McWhorter or Glenn Loury. And that would seem to be kind of the point, from my experience...
This was such a valuable conversation. It’s clear to me that we should want to structure our society such that people can be seen for their individuality while also feeling a sense of community and commonality. The old ways of doing this - race, religion, etc - are just not sufficient. The path to finding new, better ways of living together is through conversations like this. Kmele, please have more conversations with John and Glenn, you guys are truly on to something here.
So good, Kmele. I think 2018 or 2019 I was listening to Mike Pesca, and he mentioned Coleman Hughes. It was a huge turning point for me. Eventually I began listening to Glenn and John’s conversations, and finally felt comfortable pushing back on some of the ideas coming from the people I had been ideologically aligned with for so many years. I started getting into debates both online and IRL, and at one point a large amount of people were barraging me with accusations of bigotry, etc., and Erec Smith came jumped in to back me up. He recommended Racecraft to me, which I think totally blew the door off the hinges. Life changing. While I had heard of you, I don’t think it was until Michael went on Andrew Sullivan’s podcast that I finally checked out TFC. So glad I did. Love hearing from you every week, and will be an avid supporter in all your future ambitions. Keep it up, and I definitely recommend getting Eric Smith on sometime. He did an awesome job on the Blocked and Reported episode recorded at Heterodox!
Apologies for going off topic but after paying to watch Andrew Schulz's Infamous (brilliantly funny and vulgar), I've been revisiting episodes 30 and 32 (literally pre and post 2016 election) and am now entering a plea for a Fifth reunion!
Why are you erasing the whites?
Yaaaaaas