On The Canceling of the American Mind: Cancel Culture Undermines Trust and Threatens Us All―But There Is a Solution. The youngest Fif’ and Maher guest. My how times have changed since 9/11. The numbers are very, very bad. Bad numbers! The sudden (and probably temporary) rediscovery of campus neutrality.
Not talking about the hosts of this podcast, but it is HILARIOUS to see the left now wanting to end cancel culture so they can keep brown shirting in the streets without repercussion. The left always abhores bad behavior unless they're doing it. I want to hand tiki torches out to the idiots at these marches.
I think you mean brown shirting, I would hope most Firefly fans are staying out of it. But yes, very amusing that now that a shibboleth of the left is in the crosshairs they’ve rediscovered the importance of free speech and civility.
An episode of TFC from late 2019 in the aftermath of an anti-semitic shooting in Jersey City. There are enough parallels that it's worth revisiting after 10.7: a media that downplays the antisemitism of the attack to avoid stigmatizing the assailant (in this case Black Israelites), media coverage that quickly moves on from this attack, anti-semitic attacks in the immediate aftermath, blaming the victims, offering sympathy for the murderers.
"...stop hiring so many people from these elite institutions in the first place..."
A-fucking-men. I went to and live in the shadows of one of these 'elite' universities that has been grabbing headlines over the last couple of weeks. In my current employment role, I've gone back to said university to possibly sponsor a project and recruit students, and outside of literally one student out of dozens that I've met, I wouldn't hire any of them. And fellow former classmates that I've discussed this with say the same thing: they've invited recent grads in to interview, and immediately regret having done so, as it reflects poorly on us alumni who try to vouch for the school. On the other hand, I was invited by another former classmate to a school where he is currently a professor and that does not have nearly the reputation of my alma mater, and I was impressed as hell by the students there, and would hire several of the students that I met without hesitation.
I wish Rikki wasn't constantly introduced as a kid or something like it. I get she's young, but she can more than stand her ground with many adults that we all see in the general commentosphere.
Millennials aren't a problem, per se; They are simply young and naivete is the privilege of youth. They can't know what they don't know. They are hardly the first generation to place undo confidence in principles and concepts which they do not adequately understand, or stand in errant judgment on all those who have come before them.
The world is rich and complicated and it was very much the responsibility of prior generations to equip the latest with an appreciation of this and useful tools to help them understand and achieve.
We are all complicit in these failures and we will all pay for them in the end.
My youngest sister was born in 1991. I was born in '82. I feel like we're probably the same generation (as much as generations male any sense). But I feel like anyone more than 10 years older than me probably had a very different childhood and especially adolescence than me.
For me I just think there is a fundamental tension between free speech and free association. How that gets resolved is going to end up depending on the details of the exact particulars and where people want to draw the lines, but there will always be lines.
Like a lot of people I think I would try to draw some sort of line between the "cancel culture" of online literal mobs hounding third party organizations to punish speech they don't like (cancel this speaker, fire this guy who had a maga bumpersticker, whatever).
And "cancellations" that are more directly made by a party negatively impacted rather than ginned up by a social media mob or astoturf letter writing/email campaign.
People shouldn't have to hire people they fundamentally dislike. I wouldn't want to hire a Nazi, (or a Harvard student).
At the same time the overall social norm of people not punishing others for political or other speech they disagree with as long as it is reasonably non-harmful has been a tremendously valuable social principle, both in the first amendment and more informally.
But then of course the weasels get in there and start stretching harm beyond any reason...
It seems almost self-evident to me that Gen Z is more open to being against cancel culture because they know how real it is. They’ve seen it in action over and over since they were children and know how easily it can come for them. Millennials are more likely to be removed enough to believe that it isn’t real and/or if it is, it only happens to people who deserve it.
Sorry I don’t have much sympathy for these pro Palestinians. Not because they support Hamas but because they have been consistently opposed to the free speech of (((Zionists))) for decades. From the confrontation at Concordia to the Irvine 11 to the harassment of Holocaust survivors, their message has been literally screamed at Jews: “get the fuck off our campus!”
Concordia is Canada, so I think outside FIRE’s purview. As for the Irvine 11, they were criminally prosecuted for violating Michael Oren’s free speech, so FIRE didn’t need to do anything. Not sure what FIRe is supposed to do about harassment of Holocaust survivors - they are not the ADL.
Pleasantly surprised by the convo about the “pro-Palestinian” voices being silenced/fired/canceled. Was bracing myself for a somewhat full throated defense. I aim to be consistent when it comes to civil liberties (and generally succeed) but I just don’t think people are entitled to jobs in the private sector.
I’m a young millennial ~8 years older than Rikki, and I feel like people my age have way more “problematic” digital footprints than people her age probably do.
We spent the four years of high school calling anyone who liked a rival sports team or listened to pop music gay. We treated it like we were anonymous redditors or something.
Perhaps ironically, my generation seems to be on the frontlines of the cancelling war.
I was pleasantly surprised to hear Gen Z is largely opposed to cancel culture. That supports my theory that a lot of the illiberalism we’re worried about might actually be counteracted by the current crop of young people who, like many generations before them, rebel against the status quo.
It might well be ironic, but there’s almost certainly a positive correlation between having done “problematic” things and vociferously labeling people as problematic.
“Me thinks he doth protest too much.” Being angry and “righteous” is a good shield against being called out yourself.
Drew Magary of Deadspin is a great example of this. From crass asshole who said all sorts of offensive shit, to someone wanting cancellations over simple disagreements.
If I am a super good "woke" soldier the wokes won't come for me!
I always felt like the pioneer of that was Arianna Huffington. She was on the verge of becoming the next Tammy Faye Baker, our National joke, and knew that if she turned hard left they wouldn't come for one of their own.
Tbh i needed a break from the “brilliant” mind of Michael Moynihan! He just talks too much for me sometimes and the brilliance comes across as arrogance.
Not talking about the hosts of this podcast, but it is HILARIOUS to see the left now wanting to end cancel culture so they can keep brown shirting in the streets without repercussion. The left always abhores bad behavior unless they're doing it. I want to hand tiki torches out to the idiots at these marches.
Oppressed good, oppressor bad
Because oppressed good, only good actions.
No bad actions, only bad targets (more oppressed group).
Therefore, wanting genocide is ok as long as the targets are "oppressors."
Simple as.
First sentence calls to mind "four legs good, two legs bad".
I think you mean brown shirting, I would hope most Firefly fans are staying out of it. But yes, very amusing that now that a shibboleth of the left is in the crosshairs they’ve rediscovered the importance of free speech and civility.
You are correct!
Amen 🙏
An episode of TFC from late 2019 in the aftermath of an anti-semitic shooting in Jersey City. There are enough parallels that it's worth revisiting after 10.7: a media that downplays the antisemitism of the attack to avoid stigmatizing the assailant (in this case Black Israelites), media coverage that quickly moves on from this attack, anti-semitic attacks in the immediate aftermath, blaming the victims, offering sympathy for the murderers.
https://wethefifth.substack.com/p/165-wconor-friedersdorf-mayhem-in-e06#details
Having a young (and very attractive) woman on when Moynihan isn't there should count as workplace bullying.
Its funny, I thought his absence was planned by the others for that very reason
He follows her on IG, so he’s not missing out. Sliding into someone’s DMs is protected speech.
😂😂😳
Now that is funny, though perhaps better for the flow of the discussion.
😂
"...stop hiring so many people from these elite institutions in the first place..."
A-fucking-men. I went to and live in the shadows of one of these 'elite' universities that has been grabbing headlines over the last couple of weeks. In my current employment role, I've gone back to said university to possibly sponsor a project and recruit students, and outside of literally one student out of dozens that I've met, I wouldn't hire any of them. And fellow former classmates that I've discussed this with say the same thing: they've invited recent grads in to interview, and immediately regret having done so, as it reflects poorly on us alumni who try to vouch for the school. On the other hand, I was invited by another former classmate to a school where he is currently a professor and that does not have nearly the reputation of my alma mater, and I was impressed as hell by the students there, and would hire several of the students that I met without hesitation.
Moynihan is currently embedded in a covert IDF female unit. That's how much he loves Israel.
I heard he mentioned something about “laying pipe”. Guess Israel’s irrigation system was damaged or something.
Really? I thought he said something about "blown fuses" and thought there was an electrical grid issue going on.
Or was it “sowing wild oats”? Gotta get those fields blowed and revitalize domestic agriculture!
A fair amount of seed spreading is on the agenda I’m sure. Might need a back hoe beforehand though.
I wish Rikki wasn't constantly introduced as a kid or something like it. I get she's young, but she can more than stand her ground with many adults that we all see in the general commentosphere.
Adults should have been in scare quotes there. We regret the error.
True
I am a millennial and I had to look up what "cheugy" means. But I do agree, millennials are the problem.
Millennials aren't a problem, per se; They are simply young and naivete is the privilege of youth. They can't know what they don't know. They are hardly the first generation to place undo confidence in principles and concepts which they do not adequately understand, or stand in errant judgment on all those who have come before them.
The world is rich and complicated and it was very much the responsibility of prior generations to equip the latest with an appreciation of this and useful tools to help them understand and achieve.
We are all complicit in these failures and we will all pay for them in the end.
"They are simply young and naivete is the privilege of youth."
Millenials are like 40 now. Sure you don't mean Z?
I still think of them in their 20s.
I guess I do
I think this just shows that “Millennial” is defined too broadly. 80s and 90s millennials (roughly) are fairly different creatures.
My youngest sister was born in 1991. I was born in '82. I feel like we're probably the same generation (as much as generations male any sense). But I feel like anyone more than 10 years older than me probably had a very different childhood and especially adolescence than me.
Yep: Our generation
So is Moyn not there due to a Trump ***** Pump accident or what.
We give him a day off every nine months or so.
A day off when the hot 23 year old on the pod...coincidence?
TFC clearly has a good leave policy.
Nine months? Is that just a random figure or is there a good reason for that interval?
For me I just think there is a fundamental tension between free speech and free association. How that gets resolved is going to end up depending on the details of the exact particulars and where people want to draw the lines, but there will always be lines.
Like a lot of people I think I would try to draw some sort of line between the "cancel culture" of online literal mobs hounding third party organizations to punish speech they don't like (cancel this speaker, fire this guy who had a maga bumpersticker, whatever).
And "cancellations" that are more directly made by a party negatively impacted rather than ginned up by a social media mob or astoturf letter writing/email campaign.
People shouldn't have to hire people they fundamentally dislike. I wouldn't want to hire a Nazi, (or a Harvard student).
At the same time the overall social norm of people not punishing others for political or other speech they disagree with as long as it is reasonably non-harmful has been a tremendously valuable social principle, both in the first amendment and more informally.
But then of course the weasels get in there and start stretching harm beyond any reason...
It seems almost self-evident to me that Gen Z is more open to being against cancel culture because they know how real it is. They’ve seen it in action over and over since they were children and know how easily it can come for them. Millennials are more likely to be removed enough to believe that it isn’t real and/or if it is, it only happens to people who deserve it.
Agree. My son is gen Z and I have the perspective that they’re just more savvy about social media than prior generations.
Exactly 👌
Sorry I don’t have much sympathy for these pro Palestinians. Not because they support Hamas but because they have been consistently opposed to the free speech of (((Zionists))) for decades. From the confrontation at Concordia to the Irvine 11 to the harassment of Holocaust survivors, their message has been literally screamed at Jews: “get the fuck off our campus!”
Where was FIRE for any of this, by the way?
Concordia is Canada, so I think outside FIRE’s purview. As for the Irvine 11, they were criminally prosecuted for violating Michael Oren’s free speech, so FIRE didn’t need to do anything. Not sure what FIRe is supposed to do about harassment of Holocaust survivors - they are not the ADL.
Am I the only one who thinks that Moynihan wasn’t on the pod with Rikki bc they were worried that he would hit on her?
Pleasantly surprised by the convo about the “pro-Palestinian” voices being silenced/fired/canceled. Was bracing myself for a somewhat full throated defense. I aim to be consistent when it comes to civil liberties (and generally succeed) but I just don’t think people are entitled to jobs in the private sector.
I’m a young millennial ~8 years older than Rikki, and I feel like people my age have way more “problematic” digital footprints than people her age probably do.
We spent the four years of high school calling anyone who liked a rival sports team or listened to pop music gay. We treated it like we were anonymous redditors or something.
Perhaps ironically, my generation seems to be on the frontlines of the cancelling war.
I was pleasantly surprised to hear Gen Z is largely opposed to cancel culture. That supports my theory that a lot of the illiberalism we’re worried about might actually be counteracted by the current crop of young people who, like many generations before them, rebel against the status quo.
It might well be ironic, but there’s almost certainly a positive correlation between having done “problematic” things and vociferously labeling people as problematic.
“Me thinks he doth protest too much.” Being angry and “righteous” is a good shield against being called out yourself.
Drew Magary of Deadspin is a great example of this. From crass asshole who said all sorts of offensive shit, to someone wanting cancellations over simple disagreements.
If I am a super good "woke" soldier the wokes won't come for me!
I always felt like the pioneer of that was Arianna Huffington. She was on the verge of becoming the next Tammy Faye Baker, our National joke, and knew that if she turned hard left they wouldn't come for one of their own.
I used to think he was hilarious. But he definitely took a turn towards the insufferable, and also away from intellectual consistency.
Yes, the cleansing fire, and all that.
Yes! I’m hopeful for this as well.
Be careful what you say or Amy Klobuchar is going to have you cancelled.
Or eat your eyes out with a comb.
Tbh i needed a break from the “brilliant” mind of Michael Moynihan! He just talks too much for me sometimes and the brilliance comes across as arrogance.
I get serious neocon vibes at times and I find it unsettling.