I suspect the reason the conversation with Sullivan was so disliked and of so little value to listeners was not due to Andrew's opinion on the Middle East.
Difference in opinions & good faith debate, turns on most 5th listeners. It is why we are here.
The reason that podcast ranked in the bottom 10 of 8 years of TFC pods was because Andrew was unprepared, incoherent, humorless & worst of all boring. I don't know if it was all the drugs & alcohol Andrew ingested (clearly he lacks MM's tolerance) or if he just didn't care but he was awful.
I listened to Coleman on Rogan, and the whole exchange on the war between Israel and Hamas was what I expect on TFC.
Everyone has an off night, an unprepared guest and one too many drinks (where a funny & enjoyable guest becomes an obnoxious asshole).
You don't get magical, top 10 podcast episodes, without having some bottom 10 episodes.
TFC just put in their floor, now let see how high the collar can go in the next 8 years.
Andrew Sullivan has been rotten on foreign affairs for some time now. I seem to remember Sullivan in strong agreement with mearsheimer on his podcast at the beginning of the Ukraine war. I’m somewhat surprised that the guys haven’t mentioned this yet.. Maybe they wanted to avoid criticizing a friend, which is understandable.
I agree with Matt that there has not really been a replacement put forward for the post WW2 order that people like Sullivan are so eager to criticize. The policies of the Obama and trump presidencies, both determined to “do it better” than W, with a lighter American global footprint, left behind a world of increasing disorder and violence. I don’t know of any great ideas here for what the US should do regarding Taiwan / Ukraine / Israel, but Sullivan seems to always be emphasizing the wrong points. He goes in for hard-nosed realism with Taiwan / Ukraine, and then Idealism for the plight of the Gazans, while expecting the US to be able bring Israel to heel.
Nice work during the CNN segment, Matt. The voice of, ahem, reason.
The grave tone of concern from Abby Phillip re: Donald Trump’s “last election” remark: “What does that even mean?” As you said, it doesn’t mean anything.
When Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and other democrats say electing Trump will bring about “the end of democracy,” that doesn’t mean anything, either. It’s all partisan, hyperbolic fearmongering, and tiresome.
So in their quest to find the dream presidential ticket No Labels basically reached out to...a bunch of people who didn't get the presidential nomination? Isn't that kind of like desperately searching for a team to stop the 1985 Chicago Bears and thinking the New England Patriots are just the team who can do it?
Aww I used to love the Old Town Ale House when I was newly of age. What happens at these meetups? Do people shout at each other? Will there be protesters? My husband adores Nancy Rommelmann, so perhaps we will go check it out.
I read the comments on the Andrew episode prior to listening, so I expected his performance to be much more dreadful than I found it to be. I can see what people were talking, but it wasn't like he was just blabbing incoherently into the microphone for an hour and half. Nor was it out of character for this podcast. Many a guest (and host) have become slurry drunk and babbly on this show many a time. He made coherent points, some more reasonable than others. I thought his takes on Israel Gaza were more sensible than his characterization of the trans debate. And also more so than his thoughts on trump, but of course this all indicates where my opinions tend to be on these issues. I didn't see any rage over those issues from the audience though. Maybe I missed it in the comments.
I can't help but feel It reflects the general lean of the audience. The "Range of Views" feels like a bit of a trope in the heterodox (or those who shall not be named because they are above such tribalistic thinking) podcast sphere. It starts sounding a bit comical because the rage of views is never that far apart and if you accidentally depart with the orthodoxy in wrong direction, you are going to hear about from the audience. But if you point out to fans that there is a common bias amongst heterodox thinkers, it usually lands about like you just farted in crowded elevator.
I just read that Andrew has a new puppy and I am granting his incoherence a little more leeway. They will fuck you up, with or without substances (and there were definitely substances).
Ethan is right about the Angel Reese thing. She is a villain who doesn’t want the blowback, when she does villain-like stuff. Granted, holding incompatible ideas is not unusual. However, being shamed into not calling attention to that fact is strange. The latter is definitely the media’s fault. Good on Ethan for questioning that.
So free speech and censorship is obviously dear to the heart of the Fif boys and Fif fans. We don't love hate speech but know hate speech laws are usually weaponized. We don't love disinfo and know it IS weaponized-but not how to deal with that tension between disinfo and free speech. Tiny Estonia, which is very tech literate, and under continual Russia cyber and dinsinfo attack, has set up government agency to educate their citizens of the hallmarks of Russian information warfare. How do they do it? We should find out. A much less rigorous effort to police disinfo by Department of Homeland Security went down in flames-perhaps rightfully so-after the "jawboning" by FBI and White House during Covid i.e. lobbying social media companies to suppress "covid disinfo" that turned out to be right. (Hey Biden Admin!-you might win some credibility on this point if you admitted both that the jawboning was out of hand, AND it suppressed not just lawful but accurate speech.)
In any case, I think the boys should invite someone from whatever is the Estonian disinfo org on to talk about how they manage things. Could be it is totally incompatible with our First Amendment, but I would like to hear how professionals who know they're under info attack from Russians-who believe Estonia shouldn't be an independent entity-manage that onslaught. A lot of Americans wrongly believe we're not the target of adversarial disinfo from China, Russian, and Iran, and we very much are. I'm sure there is a lot we could learn from Estonia.
About the NCAA stuff; I can't be the only one that sees this up coming draft for the WNBA as a kind of coming out moment for them. The league has been a laughing stock financially for a couple decades now, but the narrative being formed over the last couple years around Clark and Reese has some eerie similarities to the discourse / moment when Magic and Bird came into the league. Am I totally nuts for thinking this? It might not be the same exactly, but it does rhyme to me. I was at the bar for the Iowa / LSU match up and the numbers of people glued to the tv, not to mention the young ladies I saw there super into it tells me if the WNBA doesn't totally fuck this up, they could be primed for a decade of incredible growth. I am not, nor have I been a WNBA fan, so maybe someone out there knows better?
I suspect the reason the conversation with Sullivan was so disliked and of so little value to listeners was not due to Andrew's opinion on the Middle East.
Difference in opinions & good faith debate, turns on most 5th listeners. It is why we are here.
The reason that podcast ranked in the bottom 10 of 8 years of TFC pods was because Andrew was unprepared, incoherent, humorless & worst of all boring. I don't know if it was all the drugs & alcohol Andrew ingested (clearly he lacks MM's tolerance) or if he just didn't care but he was awful.
I listened to Coleman on Rogan, and the whole exchange on the war between Israel and Hamas was what I expect on TFC.
Everyone has an off night, an unprepared guest and one too many drinks (where a funny & enjoyable guest becomes an obnoxious asshole).
You don't get magical, top 10 podcast episodes, without having some bottom 10 episodes.
TFC just put in their floor, now let see how high the collar can go in the next 8 years.
Well this is turning into one of my favorite TFC outputs. Lots of grist for the old mill.
Great essay, Benjy!
Have fun in the Windy City, and keep on “amplifying” people you have disagreements with!
Andrew Sullivan has been rotten on foreign affairs for some time now. I seem to remember Sullivan in strong agreement with mearsheimer on his podcast at the beginning of the Ukraine war. I’m somewhat surprised that the guys haven’t mentioned this yet.. Maybe they wanted to avoid criticizing a friend, which is understandable.
I agree with Matt that there has not really been a replacement put forward for the post WW2 order that people like Sullivan are so eager to criticize. The policies of the Obama and trump presidencies, both determined to “do it better” than W, with a lighter American global footprint, left behind a world of increasing disorder and violence. I don’t know of any great ideas here for what the US should do regarding Taiwan / Ukraine / Israel, but Sullivan seems to always be emphasizing the wrong points. He goes in for hard-nosed realism with Taiwan / Ukraine, and then Idealism for the plight of the Gazans, while expecting the US to be able bring Israel to heel.
❤️🥰🙏
Benjy's essay is brilliant! Bravo! ❤️
Nice work during the CNN segment, Matt. The voice of, ahem, reason.
The grave tone of concern from Abby Phillip re: Donald Trump’s “last election” remark: “What does that even mean?” As you said, it doesn’t mean anything.
When Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and other democrats say electing Trump will bring about “the end of democracy,” that doesn’t mean anything, either. It’s all partisan, hyperbolic fearmongering, and tiresome.
So in their quest to find the dream presidential ticket No Labels basically reached out to...a bunch of people who didn't get the presidential nomination? Isn't that kind of like desperately searching for a team to stop the 1985 Chicago Bears and thinking the New England Patriots are just the team who can do it?
Aww I used to love the Old Town Ale House when I was newly of age. What happens at these meetups? Do people shout at each other? Will there be protesters? My husband adores Nancy Rommelmann, so perhaps we will go check it out.
Fif' fave Josh Szeps sat down for two hours with the edible Chris Williamson... https://youtu.be/Rj5IAevSsHM?si=sYwWrYh6dsk4CFBN
I read the comments on the Andrew episode prior to listening, so I expected his performance to be much more dreadful than I found it to be. I can see what people were talking, but it wasn't like he was just blabbing incoherently into the microphone for an hour and half. Nor was it out of character for this podcast. Many a guest (and host) have become slurry drunk and babbly on this show many a time. He made coherent points, some more reasonable than others. I thought his takes on Israel Gaza were more sensible than his characterization of the trans debate. And also more so than his thoughts on trump, but of course this all indicates where my opinions tend to be on these issues. I didn't see any rage over those issues from the audience though. Maybe I missed it in the comments.
I can't help but feel It reflects the general lean of the audience. The "Range of Views" feels like a bit of a trope in the heterodox (or those who shall not be named because they are above such tribalistic thinking) podcast sphere. It starts sounding a bit comical because the rage of views is never that far apart and if you accidentally depart with the orthodoxy in wrong direction, you are going to hear about from the audience. But if you point out to fans that there is a common bias amongst heterodox thinkers, it usually lands about like you just farted in crowded elevator.
I just read that Andrew has a new puppy and I am granting his incoherence a little more leeway. They will fuck you up, with or without substances (and there were definitely substances).
Ethan is right about the Angel Reese thing. She is a villain who doesn’t want the blowback, when she does villain-like stuff. Granted, holding incompatible ideas is not unusual. However, being shamed into not calling attention to that fact is strange. The latter is definitely the media’s fault. Good on Ethan for questioning that.
So free speech and censorship is obviously dear to the heart of the Fif boys and Fif fans. We don't love hate speech but know hate speech laws are usually weaponized. We don't love disinfo and know it IS weaponized-but not how to deal with that tension between disinfo and free speech. Tiny Estonia, which is very tech literate, and under continual Russia cyber and dinsinfo attack, has set up government agency to educate their citizens of the hallmarks of Russian information warfare. How do they do it? We should find out. A much less rigorous effort to police disinfo by Department of Homeland Security went down in flames-perhaps rightfully so-after the "jawboning" by FBI and White House during Covid i.e. lobbying social media companies to suppress "covid disinfo" that turned out to be right. (Hey Biden Admin!-you might win some credibility on this point if you admitted both that the jawboning was out of hand, AND it suppressed not just lawful but accurate speech.)
In any case, I think the boys should invite someone from whatever is the Estonian disinfo org on to talk about how they manage things. Could be it is totally incompatible with our First Amendment, but I would like to hear how professionals who know they're under info attack from Russians-who believe Estonia shouldn't be an independent entity-manage that onslaught. A lot of Americans wrongly believe we're not the target of adversarial disinfo from China, Russian, and Iran, and we very much are. I'm sure there is a lot we could learn from Estonia.
About the NCAA stuff; I can't be the only one that sees this up coming draft for the WNBA as a kind of coming out moment for them. The league has been a laughing stock financially for a couple decades now, but the narrative being formed over the last couple years around Clark and Reese has some eerie similarities to the discourse / moment when Magic and Bird came into the league. Am I totally nuts for thinking this? It might not be the same exactly, but it does rhyme to me. I was at the bar for the Iowa / LSU match up and the numbers of people glued to the tv, not to mention the young ladies I saw there super into it tells me if the WNBA doesn't totally fuck this up, they could be primed for a decade of incredible growth. I am not, nor have I been a WNBA fan, so maybe someone out there knows better?
Ive just accepted at this point that Israel Palestine convo is really just a double edged sword. It’s ugly and brutal in whatever direction you look!